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The Shrink for Entrepreneurs with Peter Shallard



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To start the show, Gary Pinkerton talks about the world’s greatest innovators and their characteristics that make them successful. In the interview segment, Jason Hartman interviews Peter Shallard, owner of The Shrink for Entrepreneurs. He discusses effective psychological models that help entrepreneurs reach their goals faster and how he helps for-profit businesses that are attempting to make a positive change in the world.

Announcer 0:04
Welcome to the heroic investing show. As first responders we risk our lives every day our financial security is under attack. Our pensions are in a state of emergency. A single on duty incident can alter or erase our earning potential instantly and forever. We are the heroes of society. We are self reliant and we need to take care of our own financial future. The heroic investing show is our toolkit of business and investing tactics on our mission to financial freedom.

Gary Pinkerton 0:39
Hello, and welcome to Episode 150 of the heroic investing show. This is a podcast for first responders, members of the military, veterans and anyone looking to improve their financial future and gain some freedom with their time. We teach America’s heroes how to build passive income, build their startup business, spark that entrepreneurial fire, and safely grow wealth through real estate and other alternative investments. My name is Gary Pinkerton. And I co host the show with Jason Hartman. On this 10th episode, like Jason does on most of his different podcasts, we go off topic. This one isn’t that far off topic though. This is Jason interviewing Peter shalford, who is owner of a company called the shrink for entrepreneurs. And Peter describes himself as a business psychology expert, and therapists gone Renegade, who works with all types of entrepreneurs around the globe as they strive to reach greater goals of wealth, freedom, and social impact. And it’s that social impact sign that really inspired me and interested me and I think is the one that will help typing, certainly to my message to my goals, but also to what is interesting to all of you that listened to the rook investing show, week after week. And thanks again so much for doing that. I’d love to hear though, if you disagree. And then please do reach out to me at Gary Gary Pinkerton Comm. So his obsession on that social impact part is with the pursuit of for profit businesses. So to kind of promote for profit businesses, owners who are interested in those that also make a positive change in the world. So he wants to help entrepreneurs create businesses that will benefit the world. So think Steve Jobs, think Bill Gates, those guys, put the internet in everyone’s fingertips and then put it in your pocket. Right. So amazing, amazing changes to the world, it caused people to be able to wake up, it caused fake media to be much harder to do. It caused oppression to be hard. It gave people in all corners of the earth, the ability to dream to be inspired about what is out there, and how low the barrier to success really is. So I agree with him. And you know, this is really what inspires me too. And, you know, he talks about helping his clients rapidly reprogram mental habits, shed light on what’s holding you back to provide insights and helping you make sense of people in new meaningful ways. Understand your product better understand what, what the need is out there better, and ignite powerful motivation and consistent drive for long term stamina. So you see your success grows exponentially. And it’s that part of playing an infinite game, as Simon Sinek says and as outlasting others that I want to drill a little bit more down into. And he does so in the interview in his part of the interview. He talks about, you know, the people that really inspired him and that are making a big difference out there in the world are those that start to develop some value or attraction or fascination with the game of actually just building the businesses themselves. You know, you see examples of this throughout history where people have more money than they need. And they had the opportunity to quit, but they don’t. They continue to re innovate, continue to lead the market and change the market. People who come to mind, right, so he talks about Colonel Sanders. So the founder of Kentucky Fried Chicken did it in his 60s, mid 60s. And he did it out of need, which is the cause of many businesses. He had one little chicken restaurant and he got rave reviews. But he didn’t have inspiration to go big until the city came in and put a highway right on top of it and bulldoze down his property. And so that caused him to innovate, right? It put him in his uncomfort zone. And this is a guy that you know, I’m in my 40s and I remember him the real gray haired Colonel Sanders on TV doing commercials, that guy would never quit. And that was inspiring as a kid to see that. Well, Disney same thing. Sam Walton there’s a great example right, which is kind of America at the time on earth maybe. And he never stopped throughout the ages never stopped. Warren Buffett very similar, right? So these people there’s, you know, john D. Rockefeller. Another great example the guy would would never give up the reins, and sometimes at the Bad for legacy, but it’s inspiring. And the real question is, why did they do it? Right? And it’s because they’re doing what Simon Sinek says, which is playing the infinite game, they weren’t out to make a bunch of money, they weren’t out to make one iPhone, they are around to continually innovate and change the world and make social change. And to, like I said, improve the world, the lives of other people, and because of that, they became ultra wealthy. So what about Simon Sinek infinite game, you know, that’s one of the things that really inspires me and, you know, provides some great motivation for us. And I think specifically for people who are veterans of service, so firefighters, police officers, EMTs members of military, I continually try to urge you and point out other individuals with podcasts and books, and programs that are helping you understand that this is not very hard, and that you are uniquely positioned to succeed. So if you look out there and go look at the studies on how many members of the military veterans and firefighters and police have led businesses have become CEOs and successful government and business owners. And you’ll find it’s a tremendous number. It’s a large percentage. And I believe it’s because of that outlast the other guy thing. So Simon Sinek comments that one of the key attributes of a leader is that you get up one more time than the other guys do. Right? It reminds me of Napoleon Hill’s story three feet from gold. It’s a separate book, but it comes from it’s an excerpt really, of thinking Grow Rich, and this this gentleman who not uncommon for the day, sells everything he has moves out for the Gold Rush, finds a hint that he’s on the right track, comes back borrows money from everyone he knows, sells this home, everything this time, moves back out there, uses all this brand new drilling equipment and eggs and eggs in days and times basically nothing. He’s completely bankrupt, given up and sell stuff to a junk dealer fancy bar has no idea nowhere near as much ability even as the guy who just sold him the equipment, certainly no experience, he does a really smart thing. He asks a professional surveyor to come and take a look and tell him what he thinks. And the gentleman looks at the small veins that had been discovered. And where the dig was and where in the part of the hills it was and knew the area well, and he says you’re very close. And so that inspired the guy to dig a little more he got he goes three feet further as the story goes, and strikes one of the largest gold discoveries in history. And the story really has two morals or two themes, I would think it’s not giving up when you’re three feet from gold, right? That’s the obvious one with a title. But the other one is seeking professional advice. This guy, you know, knew he didn’t know anything. How many times have we been in that scenario, right. And now the ability to seek professional advices the barriers very low, you can meet with professionals without having to get on an airplane and go meet him in person. And so I push you to consider doing that, in my story, my participation of the book, the one thing that changed everything, Amazon number one bestseller back in April, where we were talking about, you know, what we had learned and one of the things that I had learned is that sharing unique genius is what’s going to bring America back to greatness. But in there, one of my lessons and realizations was that the only scarce thing on earth is time only scarce thing for people this time. So you know, I’ve tried to create a little urgency there. But what I’m really saying is that look throughout your life, and I’m guilty of this too, and find things that really are not in your wheelhouse. Maybe you’re good at them. But they’re not the thing that you’re better than everybody else at. I’m really good at mow my lawn. But I can pay somebody else to do as good a job or even if it’s only 80% of my job that frees me up to go do those things that I am better at than everybody else. So unique genius, right? Focus on unique genius. And remember that time is the scarce resource. So seek professional help and seek coaches and people who can get you focused. And I think that Peter shallot is one of those guys. So in a moment, we’re going to shift over and talk with these two. And this is really a fascinating interview. I want to just remind you though, that we have some really, really good upcoming new episodes and some other great best of the best from Jason from Greenwell shows and some of his other shows and muscle bringing in now some, some interviews about short term rentals. My wife, Sue and I got our first one and we’re starting to look into this. Obviously, we’re a little bit later than the the early adopters. But there’s still a long way to go in the Airbnb and short term rental world. So stay tuned for those. And without further ado, please enjoy. I think you’re really gonna like this discussion between Jason Hartman and Peter showered from the shrink for entrepreneurs.

Jason Hartman 9:45
It’s my pleasure to welcome Peter sheller to the show. He is known as the shrink for entrepreneurs, and he’s got a rather renowned business psychology angle on things and he likes to say he’s a therapist gone Renegade. So We’ll talk about how to achieve success as an entrepreneur and some very interesting recent blog posts that he’s done. Peter, welcome. How are you?

Peter Shallard 10:09
I’m doing great. Thanks for having me.

Jason Hartman 10:11
Good. Well, it’s good to have you. And you’re coming to us today from the Big Apple, New York City. That’s right. Yeah, fantastic. Well, I became interested in your work when I read a couple of your blog posts, and one of them was about the dangers of becoming superhuman, and how being over optimized can really hurt us and be a disadvantage and, and another one that really interested me was on emotional intelligence, and then the concept of another one on having tons of potential, and why that can actually be a disadvantage to people. So I want to dive into those. But before we do that, I just generally thought, from your practice, you call it I think that the clarity couch or something like that, which is that tell us about your childhood type of thing. lay back on the on the Friday and couch there. Right? And you don’t want to ask you, what do you see as some of the things entrepreneurs are really doing wrong, Peter? And then some of the things they’re doing right?

Peter Shallard 11:12
Hmm, that’s a really, that’s a really big question. It’s a good one, there’s, so I’m focused on the mindset pretty much exclusively, I work with people with entrepreneurs right at the place where they’re thinking and their behavior caused by their thinking intersects with their business’s bottom line. And I guess the mistakes if I was to say that there were mistakes that people are making it, they’re kind of the, the kind of the mistakes that people make as a result of their psychology, you know, really being in development really being in a phase of kind of growth, there’s certain things that we all have to figure out in life. And when we throw those psychological issues up against a business, we’re forced to figure them out in order to produce business results to progress the business forward. So specifically, I kind of come up against emotional baggage that you know, that has to be the first category is when an entrepreneur or someone who’s aspiring to be an entrepreneur has had things happen in their life, where there’s been a lot of negative emotions, a lot of kind of trauma, quote, unquote, they’re when they’re in when they’re running their business, they might encounter situations that are similar to that that is similar to that thing that happened to them in the past that caused them to freeze up or kind of become paralyzed in some ways. So I think that having those kind of psychological blind spots is often Yeah, as often a huge deal. It’s a thing that it’s a mistake that people make in the sense that they don’t realize, running a business is basically running a self development machine. You know, businesses exist, primarily to make profit, you know, in a capitalistic sense. But I like to say that business is a human growing machines, because they take the founder, the entrepreneur, and force them through all of these kind of cathartic processes, where it’s sort of survival of the fittest, you have to wise up, your thinking has to change and evolve, you have to overcome those negative emotions from your past, you have to overcome limiting beliefs, and really identify the capability gaps that you haven’t filled them. You know, that’s the so I don’t like to think of, like, General mistakes that every entrepreneur makes that I that I noticed. But if if you, if I if I think about what trends I do see and people who are kind of figuring it out, it’s that it’s developing that self awareness to be able to look over, look at yourself, look at your past, look at where you’ve come from, and see what kind of limitations are there in my thinking, or in your thinking, around your beliefs around your capabilities on what you’re really capable of achieving? And around your behavior? You know, are you disciplined enough to be successful, you’re doing the right things on a daily basis to be successful. And I think, I think developing that ability to really truly and honestly see yourself is when it’s lacking, that’s the biggest mistake anyone can make. And when it’s there, it’s I think it’s number one of the number one causes for success, being able to see those capability gaps. Does that kind of make sense? Or does it

Jason Hartman 14:00
I mean, does that go back to the concept of we don’t know, what we don’t know, and how that puts us at a, you know, a disadvantage.

Peter Shallard 14:09
Why think that I think that regular civilians don’t know what they don’t know. But the great

Jason Hartman 14:13
thing civilians

Peter Shallard 14:15
The great thing about running a business is that very rapidly, you know, as you and I both know very rapidly, your business will teach you what you don’t know it’ll it’ll point it out with like a flashing neon sign and be like this, my friend is an area that you need to work on. And I think that’s what’s great about you know, about kind of committing to that journey of building a business and and i think that that’s something to focus on, that a lot of entrepreneurs can kind of get distracted from, you know, like, your number one job as an entrepreneur is you’re you’re the asset, you’re the number one asset of your business, certainly when you’re starting out, you might be the only asset that your business has. So you need to identify any of the weaknesses, you know, you need to figure out are they areas in my kind of capability and skill set that are holding the business back? Are there areas As we’re kind of my belief maybe about what I’m capable of maybe my self confidence is holding the business back. And I think one of the most obvious places that we see this in small businesses is sales when the founder, the CEO, the entrepreneur is involved and actually selling their own product or services, all of that psychological stuff can really get in the way.

Jason Hartman 15:17
Yeah, that’s true. When you talked about your you made the remark, it was kind of funny about regular civilians, not seeing their weaknesses, but as an entrepreneur, you know, the marketplace will point them out to us, usually rather quickly. And, and that it right there, Peter is a huge testimonial for why capitalism and free market systems work so well, because we get that we get feedback pretty quickly, and we can iterate, and we can make course corrections, and do that. Whereas in government, people can work for four decades, and they don’t care about feedback, there’s no real feedback, because the marketplace, you know, because it operates on, on no rules, I mean, when you can print your own money ad infinitum. And you don’t have to have a budget that works or a system that works or a product people want to read, you know, anything just doesn’t work. I mean, it’s you get dysfunctional, non working things can perpetuate almost indefinitely.

Peter Shallard 16:20
Absolutely. And I think, you know, the civilian jug is kind of like a term, I used to just kind of joke around about people who aren’t entrepreneurs who aren’t on that journey. And I think there is a very big line in the sand. You know, even people who are just working, you know, the traditional nine to five corporate job, when you’re working for a large organization, and the buck doesn’t necessarily stop with you, you’re not the the person who’s ultimately accountable, the founder, the CEO, whatever, you’re kind of in a place where there’s a lot of things that could go wrong, if you’re not performing. Let’s say you’re a salesperson working for a fortune 500 company, if you’re not performing, you may be able to say, Well, hey, like the product delivery guys are letting me down. And I don’t have faith in them. So I’m not able to go out and sell consistently I don’t, you know, there’s something wrong with this with this company. It’s not my fault, right? So there’s all that kind of dialogue that can happen that you know, and does happen to be quite honest. There’s a lot of people who have the, they have reasons why they can’t produce success. When you’re an entrepreneur, the only thing that you produce is results. There’s no reasons there’s no rationale. It’s like it’s it’s a result, and it’s either a good one or a bad one. So you can’t say like, Oh, you know, the product delivery side of my small business is letting my sales team down, because you’re talking about yourself, you know, you you have to quickly figure it out. And that’s what’s great about about the entrepreneurial journey is that if something is wrong with your business, the results you get will point that out to you. It’s kind of like radar that you know, it’s like it’s like a homing system that will zero in on and say, here’s what you need to work on. Here’s what you need to fix. And I think it is possible, you asked me about mistakes, which I think it’s just a fascinating question what what mistakes people make. And I think that the biggest mistake and it is possible for people to do this is to ignore that that market feedback is for people to really not pay attention to the results that they’re getting, and kind of keep striving away trying to do the same thing, trying to maybe develop the same product that there never really was interest in the market for that product or some some example like that. So yeah, having the perception is really important to know when we’re getting that feedback. And what we need to change is I think, you know that that’s the key to psychological clarity. That’s why entrepreneurs do well to pay attention to their thinking and everything that’s going on between their ears.

Jason Hartman 18:32
Yeah, no question about it. So where where is the difference? And where does the distinction lie between these the concept you just mentioned, where we’re talking about getting feedback, not passing the buck, being accountable, making course corrections constantly iterating and giving the market what they want, giving the marketplace what they want through that iteration. And the difference between you know, we’ve all heard lots of stories about famous entrepreneurs who kept doing something kept doing something kept banging their head against the wall. They were incredibly persistent. And they overcame incredible odds, because and, you know, the only reason we hear their story is because they ultimately became successful. Like, like Tom Peters, I think he was the one who said, the only thing that ever, you know, the only person that ever achieves anything great is a moto maniac with a mission. And you know, the concept of the Colonel Sanders story over 1000 times he was rejected the marketplace kept telling him No, but he believed so deeply that he would be a success that he just kept on keeping on. And ultimately he was where do we at what point do we decide? Okay, the market is telling me this is not the plan. This is I’m getting feedback here and I need to change my course quit give up, go back to my corporate job in the future. Whatever, whatever it is, or I just need to be so persistent and keep going,

Peter Shallard 20:06
huh? Yeah, that’s a fantastic question. I think that this, this is why the whole kind of lean startup and agile business building methodology has become so popular recently because it those those methodologies exist as a framework, they they offer people a framework for validating their ideas in a way that you can kind of believe in, like, you can sort of believe that you are doing it the right way, you’re iterating and testing the right way. And I think that that’s a huge problem is what you’re talking about is kind of the dichotomy between just continuing to iterate and iterate and change what you’re doing and test things out until something takes versus, you know, trying to make your thing work, and then maybe just giving up because the, the market doesn’t want what you have, I think that it’s the difference between entrepreneurs, like that dichotomy is the difference between somebody who’s obsessed with building a business, and somebody who’s obsessed with bringing bringing a product to market. And I think that they’re a success stories on both sides of that fence. But it’s the odds of, of bringing the product to market a much on that side, it’s a much, much riskier kind of prospect, it’s kind of like trying to be an artist, you know, just just really believing your paintings are the best. And hopefully, everybody else recognizes them to the genius that they are. In the case of Colonel Sanders, he had really good chicken. So I think that really helped. But we don’t hear the stories, we don’t hit quotes, or interesting inspirational stories about all of the people who believed in themselves relentlessly, but had bad chicken. And so it never really got anywhere and kind of ended up, you know, giving up or leaving this planet. And in one way, shape, or form, you know, feeling massively unsatisfied. And I think that there’s millions of stories like that, you know, the, there’s very, very few people who have some product, some thing that they really want to birth into the world, and they show up with it instantly hit a homerun and then then kind of rock it, they’re, you know, just enjoy their retirement, you know, what I mean? doesn’t happen that often, I think that there’s always some form of iteration, there’s always some packaging, there’s something that has to be changed. And I think that, you know, I certainly encourage my clients, to be to also start to develop a love for the game itself start to develop some value, some some sort of like attraction and fascination with the game of actually building businesses themselves. I’ve known, I’ve known very few entrepreneurs, who at the kind of the peak, the summit of their career, and the golden years, are actually more kind of passionate and obsessed with the product, or whatever their business is about the chicken, let’s say in the Colonel Sanders example, then they are kind of obsessed with, with the structure, with the economy, with the business that they’ve built around it. And I think that that’s where that iterative, iterative focus, and that whole philosophy lies. And I think that’s where entrepreneurs really create massive successes, where they become obsessed with playing the game, you know, what I mean, with with sort of building the thing, and then, and then actually, we get entrepreneurs who arrive at a place in Korea where they’ve made made some successful business around selling chicken, they’ve fallen in love with the process of building that business, then they realize that they can build that whole other business, they can jump sideways and build another huge, great big Empire. But instead of chicken, it’s like yo yos or it’s something on the internet, or I don’t know, it could be anything. And and at that point, you’ve got a true entrepreneur, somebody who’s who’s about the game of business, rather than about the chicken.

Jason Hartman 23:33
Right, right. Right. Yeah, that’s, that’s interesting distinction there. Well, as I was mentioning to you, before we started, I just, I had Steven Kotler on the show before, and I just finished his book, The rise of Superman. I bought it originally, Peter not knowing what it was about, really, or in detail, I just thought it was going to be about super health and super optimization and that kind of stuff. But it was more about extreme sports and things like that, which is kind of interesting. But what intrigued me is that you wrote a blog post about the dangers of becoming superhuman, and how to avoid the over optimized entrepreneur syndrome. And you know, this is a popular topic nowadays. There are all kinds of websites like, you know, life hacker and, and websites, you know, the bulletproof executive about hacking your body, hacking the system, optimizing everything multitasking, we just want to do this, you know, as entrepreneurs, instinctually. This all sounds great. Is there there’s a dark side, you’re saying?

Peter Shallard 24:37
Yeah, and I think that the article that you’re that I wrote caused some controversy, and i think that i think that i want to kind of establish that I don’t think that aiming to be Superman is necessarily a bad goal. I think it’s the way people are approaching those goals that is kind of hurting their chances. And that article, the reason that it really resonated was that a ton of my clients are wrestling with stuff. So when I, when that one went to press I was I was sort of typing out an article based on the session that I had the hour before with one of my clients, you know, then and with, with about a dozen of them, this is a really massive problem. It’s something that’s happening all over the place, I would say it’s particularly if there’s if there’s a kind of a bell curve, I think that the majority of people who have this problem the younger male entrepreneurs who are having this, this kind of superhuman pressure, it happened in their lives. And what it is, is it’s the desire to have optimization in every area of their lives. So business success, number one, first and foremost, health success got to have the six pack or you know, the flat stomach or whatever, you’ve got to have a great relationship like an inspirational relationship, your significant others, others should be blowing all of your friends away with their awesomeness. In some cases, people don’t have kids, you have to be raising these Mensa level genius children. At the same time, you know, spirituality, you should have a meditation habit on top of all of that. And there’s nothing wrong with aiming to have genius children, six pack abs a multimillion dollar successful business. And it’s not, you know, a billion dollar business, and all of that, but the problem is reaching for it all at the same time. That’s the dark side of it, where I see entrepreneurs tearing themselves up, because they’re blowing through their their own expectations, they’re failing to meet these massive expectations they have because they’re reaching in so many different directions at once. In the article, I talked about a psychological concept called splitting, which is basically all or nothing thinking. And for entrepreneurs, the way that that manifests is that they say, this is my goal to be superhuman, and all these different areas. And then they split the goal, they have this black or white or black, all or nothing thinking where if they’re not at 100% of that goal, they’re failures. And so I’m working with guys who are independently like the massively successful, the phenomenally wealthy, they have phenomenal relationships, lots of stuff is great, but like maybe they had a couple of pizzas in the last week, because they were working really hard on their business or whatever. And they feel terrible about themselves. They feel like a failure, because they’re not optimized in every sphere of life. And the point of the article, and certainly, like my professional advice for people who are wrestling with this is to recognize that all of the people who we look at now as superhuman, and there’s some, there’s a lot of business leaders who are speaking at conferences, and you know, they’re kind of publishing New York Times bestselling books and stuff like that. I think Richard Branson is the classic example of someone who, billionaire genius, playboy philanthropist, you know what I mean? Like, he’s the whole package, right? Those guys didn’t get there by doing it all at once they built these things incrementally in their life. So what I encourage people to do is like, pick one or two, or maybe three areas in your life and focus on optimizing those incrementally. You know what I mean, don’t don’t put the expectation on yourself that that while you’re building, I had a client, I think I mentioned this in the article, I had a client who was at the most critical year of if not, if not the most critical quarter of the most critical year of his business, in a sense that he had run a massive kind of pre selling campaign had raised tons and tons of money, and had to deliver big time for all of these customers who had been pre sold on the product that he was pitching them. So he had huge, huge pressure. Now, if I was that guy, like I would focus on doing that pretty much first and foremost. But he was also trying to get the six back, he was like ruthlessly juicing and cleansing and working out, he was also telling himself Now that everything’s optimized with the business and he’s in the zone, it’s time to start dating again, and meet that dream girl. And like, there’s all this other stuff going on. And it’s just kind of like, dude, you know, this is not how anyone built this superhuman Empire, you’ve got to do it one brick at a time incrementally. And when you’ve got the super successful business and it’s operating, and it’s optimized, then you’re gonna have the psychological bandwidth to take on another goal and you know, then get the six pack or whatever, you know, like, I think just that’s that’s really the point is that the article was a big psychological explanation and ultimately a call for like, moderate incremental success strategies because the alternative is these guys set these unrealistic goals they have black and white all or nothing thinking they don’t accomplish them because you can’t do everything at once. So they kind of flame out and in some cases, the tragedy is they’ll quit altogether because they just feel it’s too difficult. And then the world loses another cool business the world loses another cool entrepreneur. Right. And and ultimately, that’s the point that’s what I’m, that’s what I’m getting at.

Jason Hartman 29:37
Okay, well, so I remember a Stephen Covey talking late Stephen Covey talking about seasonal imbalance. So, if this is the season, where you really got to just shut everything out of your life and work on your business, for example, it’s a critical time, or this is the season where you’ve really got to work on your relationship. your fitness level? I mean, is that what you’re saying? kind of work on one thing at a time? But don’t we want to always sort of balance everything out? You know, like, if you’re working hard in your business, shouldn’t you be going to the gym too? or?

Peter Shallard 30:16
Yeah, and I guess what I’m saying is that I think that if you have balance, you have to set the goal, like you have to, you have to have incremental goals, you can’t have the expectation of, I want to be a mill, I want to be a multimillionaire, but your business is only making a few thousand dollars a month, and I want to have a six pack, but you’re like 40 pounds overweight, or whatever, or even, you know, 1020 pounds of a way. You can’t, you can’t have goals in that area that you’ll massively reach him for. And then be working on all of those reaching in a huge way all at the same time. There has to be like you have to reel in the end, you have to find balance. Absolutely. You have to find that not moderation. So I know people who are like who are ruthlessly committed to business, they ambition knows no bounds. They’re relentless. And they’re successful in accomplishing their ambitions, because that’s pretty much all they focus on. Do I want that life No, I love balance too much. I want to be able to go to the gym, I want to find time to to be present in my relationship as well. I want all of these other things. But I think that there’s no real prescription. I think that everybody gets to decide what their balances but but what’s important is sustainability. So that because building business success takes time, living a life well lived takes time, so you don’t want to flame out. And that’s really the point of that’s kind of my concern around the superhuman movement is that the the pressure that people put themselves on entrepreneurs are notorious for having enormously high expectations for themselves. But there’s life hacking movement has kind of upped the ante with that to the point that I see remarkably talented people who are capable of changing the planet flaming out early before they really do their best work, because they’re putting so much pressure on themselves, not just to have balance in their life, but to have every single sphere of life spoke on the wheel of life category, whatever you want to call it at like 110% at all times. And and realistically, that’s not how that’s not how you get there. It may be possible, I think it’s debatable. Can you be at 100% in every part of your life at once. Maybe you can, maybe Richard Branson is I don’t know, you know, I don’t know that guy personally, but but I think that you have to get there step by step by step.

Jason Hartman 32:30
Well, I think part of the Branson thing and I, you know, I spent some time with Richard Branson. I went to Necker Island about a year ago, and hung out with him a little bit. And, you know, one of the things I take from him is that in and from reading his books to is that his part of his whole, really, his whole business model was Yes, he wanted to do great things and change industries. And, you know, obviously, he succeeded in doing that. But part of the whole model was having fun, making it, you know, his brand is a fun brand, the whole concept of the Virgin brand is is really fun is just part of its personality. Right? And so, when we talk about, okay, you know, he’s, he’s living a big life and traveling and being a playboy and all that kind of stuff. That’s really part of the business model.

Peter Shallard 33:21
Right. Absolutely. I mean, in some cases, that’s literally part of the brand. It’s part of his marketing expenses, you know, to pay for the party, because it’s, it’s they they film it, and that’s part of the whole cachet around how, you know, Richard Branson, has this playboy, so, absolutely, I and I think that like I think that that really serves to kind of prove the point in some ways that there has to be there has to be focus on fun, there has to be that kind of balance. I you know, I think that a lot of people a lot of entrepreneurs wrestle with do I ease up on myself? Do I allow myself to have that fun? Do I have the night off? Do I you know, do I do I take that do I go to that party? Do I have the fun? I mean, and I’m talking about people I work with are all incredibly high performing individuals there there is this internal kind of wrestling match that they do with themselves and and i think that the drive to be superhuman often takes them in the other direction it takes them towards No, like work hard to be more disciplined. You’re not there yet. you’re failing miserably at all of these areas. You’re not you’re not being superhuman. I actually an interesting example of the fun thing, I spent some time with Tim Ferriss recently, and he was talking about like, what some of his some of his realizations post four hour workweek, you know, now that that book sort of years in the past, was really around the importance of, you know, aside from the business hacking strategies to get your business to the point that it’s optimized and all that kind of stuff, and you don’t have to spend so much time on it. He’s really noticed the importance of stressing Hey, like you’re supposed to actually fill up all of that extra time that you have, with the work like the mini vacations, going and doing fun stuff living like doing extremely adventure sports and having a having a really great time basically traveling and being on vacation. The reason that that’s so important is he’s known as people will read the four hour workweek, they’ll end they’ll implement the principles, and then they’ll fill all of the extra available time they have with more work. Because that’s what entrepreneurs do. That’s like a unique thing about entrepreneurs about the entrepreneurial mind is that it felt that entrepreneurial brain will fill all available time with work if it’s given the chance. And I think that, yeah, I think that this makes for this kind of burnt out like hyper manic aspiring to be superhuman entrepreneur thing. And yeah, I think when Richard Branson is successful, not despite partying, but perhaps because partying because he’s been partying, you know, maybe we need to maybe we need to look at that. And, yeah, bring some of that balance into our quest to be superhuman.

Jason Hartman 35:52
Yeah, Peter, I like what you said, you know, that I’m looking at the comments on that blog post. And, and one of the things you said to one of your readers, is, you said that all or nothing usually results in nothing. And I think that’s a very good point. So they’re either make the, the thing you know, the other thing, like the fun example, part of the brand, or, you know, just understand there, there will be seasonal imbalance, and you do this and then you do something else work on the next part of it. As long as you don’t toting lead neglect one thing as you’re doing something else, because then it will completely go away like fitness, you know, because it’s, it’s really hard if you, if you if you get up to 300 pounds, it’s really hard to reverse that and fix it.

Peter Shallard 36:39
Exactly, yeah, I had a conversation with one of my clients who is wrestling with this. And we were actually joking about the old mockumentary spinal tap. I don’t know if you’ve seen that. But there’s this whole joke about, about turning the amp up to 11 you know, like, most amps only go up to 10. But my one goes up to 11. So there’s this whole joke and I said to him, I was like you can’t live your life with like four or five switches or six or whatever in front of you, you know, spirituality, relationships, health, business, and hand put turn them all up to 11. Because you’ll do that and then you won’t be able to maintain it and your, your, you know, you might be able to be that discipline for about two and a half days before you’ll totally collapse and be like, I just need to sit on the couch, watch Netflix and order a pizza, and which is not really serving any of those kind of life categories. In my experience, and I’ve worked with a lot of massively successful entrepreneurs, I’ve seen the kind of climb that meteoric rise to to that level of success. It starts with people with the dials down wherever they’re realistically at, you know, life. And then you you turn one up, and you feel what that balance is like and what life is like kind of putting a bit more juice into the business. And then you maybe turn up the health juice a little bit, and then you kind of like, Oh, that was a bit much I should ease back a little bit and it’s just this tweaking game and slowly but surely you learn things you become smarter you wise up about the ways of the world and how businesses around and and you keep turning up the switches and then maybe you become Richard Branson, and you have everything turned up to 11 including partying. But it’s it’s that incremental approach to building success rather than setting out to be superhuman from day one. And like I said, this is a symptom of typically like younger entrepreneurs who actually haven’t yet built massive multi billion dollar empires. So it’s, it’s, uh, the problem is overzealous expectations. And then when the results inevitably come in a little bit under those overzealous expectations, these people get very depressed. And that’s the part that really bothers me. It’s like, it’s so unnecessary, they’re killing it, you know, they should be feeling great about it, why not be happy and enjoy success rather than being miserable, because you’re never quite superhuman enough?

Jason Hartman 38:44
Very good things. Hey, I want to try and ask you about two more topics with with our limited time here. So one is about emotional intelligence, intelligence, a lot has been written about that. What is emotional intelligence? And how will it make or break business success? And you know, how do you get more of it?

Peter Shallard 39:02
emotional intelligence is a huge topic, but let’s talk about it. Let’s define it in terms of like, how it’s relevant to entrepreneurs. So I I do a huge amount of work in this space. And I think that emotional intelligence is the ability for an entrepreneur to be able to take that sometimes confusing mass of input, like the things that we feel as we’re operating in the world and really make sense of them and use those emotional feedback kind of inputs as tools to make decisions. So there’s kind of a saying that decisiveness is everything in business. And I definitely agree being an entrepreneur, certainly once you start building your organization, working with staff, being a leader, that type of thing. Everything is about making rapid decisions, the quicker that you can make the faster the person who makes the fastest good decisions is the person who wins in business period, right? That is the name of the game. And so being able to make rapid decisions is not about being able to run through complex frameworks and lattices and matrix says have logic, it’s about being able to make gut intuition work for you, it’s about being able to make intuitive decisions. That’s how we make our quickest decisions in business, you know, to go left or right at that key tactical crossroads. So emotional intelligence is the thing, or lack of emotional intelligence is the thing that prevents entrepreneurs making good gut decisions. So when you don’t have emotional intelligence, you don’t know what you’re feeling, you don’t know how you react to certain scenarios, you don’t know that every negative emotion is an action signal, and you don’t know the meaning of them, then you don’t really know what you’re feeling. So you’re not getting that valuable feedback from your gut. There’s a lot there’s a school of psychology that believes that at the unconscious level, were plugged into something ie the collective unconscious, much greater than ourselves, there’s a much there’s a deep kind of well of wisdom that potentially we have access to. And if that sounds whoo, whoo, it’s only because I don’t have time to kind of get into the, you know, the real scientific background for some of these ideas, and where some of the stuff is actually pretty serious. But you know, maybe that is, let’s say, that is a concept that is true, or let’s play with it and pretend as if it is, that’s what we’re tapping into when we make those rapid decisions when we make those gut decisions. And, yeah, emotional intelligence, cultivating and developing emotional intelligence is what lets us do that, and what it’s what lets us overcome uncertainty, and kind of overwhelm and all of that self sabotage, and just know what we want to do and when to do it, and how to do it. And yeah, be able to take in that vast amount of data that our business is always serving up before our very eyes, make decisions, move forward, kick ass, etc, etc. You

Jason Hartman 41:41
know, you know, there’s a great quote that I read, I don’t know, many, many years ago, and it goes something along the lines of successful people make decisions quickly, as soon as all the facts are available, and change their minds very slowly, if ever, well, failures, make decisions very slowly, and change them often. So being decisive is definitely a critical business skill. I would say. We, you know, we’ve all seen the people with a paralysis of analysis that just, they just never get out of the starting gate. I mean, it’s just, you know, I see that with my real estate investor clients and, and then like, you keep track of these people. And, and, and look back, you know, years later, gosh, had you just if you just would have made a decision three years ago, or five years ago, look at how much better your life would be now, it’s just so bad see it over and over?

Peter Shallard 42:35
Exactly. And I think I think that’s true for everybody. I don’t know anyone for whom that’s not sure I’ve regardless of industry, even for myself, you know, I wish that there was that the only reason the only regret that I’ve ever had about anything that I’ve done has been not doing it quicker. You know, like even some of the biggest failures I’ve had in my career. I just wish I had done them faster. So I could have had those great learnings, reframed all of the pain into learning experiences and moved on fossa is acceleration is key. You know, one of my, one of my best friends, one of my really good mentors, who’s actually yeah, on the board of one of my companies once said, there’s a brilliant, eloquent quote, he just said, in business, the most certain guy in the room in the room wins. The most certain guy in the room wins. And I think that senti like 17 decisiveness, it’s two sides of the same coin. And that’s, that is a that is a ability, a kind of a character trait that we want to cultivate as entrepreneurs.

Jason Hartman 43:30
But what someone would say you could be certainly wrong. I mean, right? I don’t know, people can be reckless, right? Yeah, that’s the

Peter Shallard 43:38
opposite side of this. Right? But emotional intelligence is where I think emotional intelligence is the missing piece of the puzzle, right? Because I would say that people who, like live in a world where they’re just certain about everything, but they’re wrong about most things as well. So they must, that person must have a terrible life, by the way, they must get into all kinds of trouble. But I would, I would say that that person probably doesn’t have a huge amount of emotional intelligence. So if we cultivate emotional intelligence, which really comes down to being able to really clearly identify, particularly the negative emotions that come up in our lives, and what they are and what the meaning behind them is, what it is that our unconscious mind is seeking to change about the situation or about our behavior. If we can really start to pay attention to that stuff, and and come through that process and arrive at certainty on the other side, then the quality of our decision making the quality of our certainty will be that much better for it. So that’s that’s really the point of emotional intelligence. And yeah, you’re totally right. Without that with without emotional intelligence, certainty. Certain is the last thing that you want to be, you know, although that doesn’t stop a bunch of people.

Jason Hartman 44:46
Right. That’s an bull. The bull in the china shop, right? Yeah. Yeah. That’s for sure. Well, hey, you know, I know we’re running long here, but I just got asked about one more thing because it’s just fascinating topic.

Peter Shallard 45:01
I got time if you do.

Jason Hartman 45:02
Yeah. So you wrote a post about why having tons of potential can put you at a serious disadvantage. Now, most people would read that on its face and think, Well, yeah, I mean, I assume you mean by potential you mean having talents, or resources? or ideas? Aren’t those all good things?

Peter Shallard 45:26
Well, actually, I don’t mean having those things when I say having potential because if you if you had those things, you would just have those things. But having I mean, maybe ideas it could be having a lot of ideas is kind of like having a lot of potential. The point with having a lot of potential is that a, I think that a lot of people get comfortable, they find a lot of comfort in the thought that they have a lot of potential. So I’m always doing little experiments with my client population. I’m always kind of surveying them and sort of learning stuff about entrepreneurial traits, because everybody asked me they’re like, and you actually kind of unique, because you haven’t asked me this classic question, which I hear every day, which What did I miss? What are the cut? No, no, seriously, I’m so bored of answering it. But it’s it’s what are the common? Like, what are the common traits amongst entrepreneurs? What What is entre, and they’re all different, because I work with people in all different industries. And so everybody’s a unique, beautiful snowflake. But I always try and find out, like, what makes entrepreneurs the same. And I’ve noticed in at least in my client population, there’s a huge number of people who were pretty solid achievers in some area when they were young children. They, you know, had a good like academic or sporting background maybe or in some other part of life, but wasn’t to do with school. And they always were told that they have a lot of potential. So entrepreneurs, like some of the vast majority of my clients would get report cards from school, when they were kids that would say, did pretty well has a lot of potential. So the teachers were always basically saying, the kid got like a b plus or an A, but they really could be getting an A plus they have a lot of potential. And I think that that’s a really interesting statement, I think it’s kind of interesting that we have this whole dialogue with with young people with children, where you tell them that they have a lot of potential, because the thing about having a lot of potential is that you’re not actually using it. And I see that in entrepreneurs a lot, who have a lot of potential and who derive comfort from the knowledge that if they would really give something they’re all like a business that they’re working on or an idea or a product or something, then if they would just harvest every scrap of potential, then they would absolutely crush it. That’s what they tell themselves. Because their whole life, they’ve been told you have a lot of potential, you’re hugely talented, you just need to use all of that potential. And so it becomes a bit of a psychological crutch. But the truth is having a lot of potential is kind of like wanting to pull a little bit of cash out of your bank without really checking your balance on the ATM, it’s like don’t look at it, you don’t want to know how much money isn’t in there. You just want to draw from it a little bit of the time. Because if you were to harvest every scrap of your potential if you would empty the account and invest it all into the one business, and that business didn’t succeed. How would you feel about this potential that you’ve been told you’ve had your entire life? It wasn’t enough. And that’s the problem, right? There is that I think, a huge number of entrepreneurs who who are familiar, and it won’t be everybody, but if you’re listening to this, and you’re familiar with this kind of you have a lot of potential narrative, if that’s been a part of your life, ask yourself, you know, like, is having a lot of potential is believing that I have a lot of potential something that’s allowing me to just be comfortable? Is it something that it’s allowing me to really never commit to anything because it’s much more comfortable to hold back a little bit and then be able to blame it? If the business doesn’t work out? You can say I will it didn’t work out because I didn’t give it my all I still have potential. That’s the that’s the problem right there with the with the you know why having a lot of potential is a huge mistake. I think that

Jason Hartman 48:52
I would also think that that concept of having a lot of potential, you know, if someone has been told that or they’ve told themselves that and their self talk over the years, it can create, obviously, an cockiness and arrogance that that could be, you know, detrimental. But it also it also creates this kind of someday I’ll concept exactly, or where, you know, it’s like, Okay, look, I’m so gifted and talented. And, you know, I got so much going for me, it’s really not that big a deal whether this thing works out or not. I’ll just go on to the next thing. Yeah. You alluded to that when you talked about the ATM example, right?

Peter Shallard 49:30
Yeah, exactly. When you’re always leaving a little bit of potential in the bank, it means that you’re never really on the line to make the thing that you’re working on right now. actually work, right? Because it’s where it’s just so comfortable to believe. Like, why is I still have that potential tucked away for a rainy day? I’ll use that someday, you know. And I think that, frankly, I think that it’s nonsense. I think that there’s people who have lived their entire lives and they’ve never actually tested the tank. They’ve never actually measured and looked and seen how much potential Do I really have? How far can it actually get And I think a better I think a better metaphor than this ATM concept, which I think is accurate for people, by the way, but I think a better metaphor is like what if potential was like a muscle, you know, you use it, we know how to lift weights and build muscle you train to failure, right? Like you lift as much as you can possibly lift, and then you go back to the gym the next week, and you lift a little bit more, that’s how you get stronger, maybe you could develop your potential and thus your results as an entrepreneur that way, but to do that, you actually have to get out of that comfort zone of always leaving a part of yourself on the bench and, and overcome the fear of the vulnerability of giving something your role. And that was the point of that article that that’s the message that I’m trying to preach across there.

Jason Hartman 50:44
Very good point. Very good point. Well, Peter, this has been a fascinating discussion. You’ve got two websites that might be of interest to the listeners, please give both of those out. If you wouldn’t explain what the maybe what the distinction is between the two.

Peter Shallard 50:57
Yeah, well, everything we’ve been talking about today is over at Peter shella.com. That’s first and foremost, my home on the internet, the shrink for entrepreneurs, I have a blog there where I publish these kind of where I my attempts at being deep and meaningful about some of these concepts. And yeah, we do some awesome stuff, talk about some awesome things, and people can find out all about how to work with me as a client. on that website. I have another thing we haven’t talked too much about it today. But I’m obsessed with defeating procrastination. It’s been something that in the past, I wrestled with a lot when I was building my business, and I’ve helped a huge number of clients successfully defeat it in our one on one work. And recently, we started a I built a startup dedicated to fighting the war and then defeating the procrastination once and for all. So it’s called commit action. So over commit action.com. And yeah, we do some really cool stuff that we work with. The Professor of Psychiatry at Harvard Medical School, we have a whole team of a coaches who are kind of productivity ninjas, who work with people to help them overcome procrastination and basically kick ass and wife and business. And yeah, we’re just doing interesting stuff. We’re currently running a free tutorial, a bunch a series of cool video tutorials on what we’ve learned about the neuroscience of defeating procrastination and, and how you can kind of implement that stuff in your life right now. So all of that is available over at commit action. It’s something that I suggest you should really go check out. Yeah, I think that for a lot of entrepreneurs, procrastination is really like the final obstacle. It’s the there’s a lot of stuff that we have to learn in life in business, we’ve kind of been talking about this all today, you’re going to have ups and downs, you’re going to learn stuff. The one thing the only real magic bullet that I believe in that I believe is real in business is acceleration is moving through the learning curve of entrepreneurship faster. And the thing that stops us doing that is procrastination. So when I created commit action, it was because I wanted to build a tool that has the highest impact kind of value to business owners. So it’s all about just defeating procrastination and literally each week having you do more stuff move more balls forward in your life in business, so that you can hit that learning curve faster. Learn from it, fill those capabilities and grow level up become superhuman, all that great stuff. That’s what it’s about.

Jason Hartman 53:17
Fantastic. Well, that procrastination stuff. I’m gonna get around to that later.

Peter Shallard 53:24
Exactly. Yeah. So everybody everybody listening and just write down that link connection calm and like maybe in about a week when you think you’re ready stuff thinking about it, Stan put it off for another few days. Yeah, I want I want when you arrive, I want you to be serious. So so just sit on it for a while. Right?

Jason Hartman 53:40
That’s right. That’s right. Just meditate on the whole thing for a while, you know, I tell you, with all the salespeople I’ve trained over the years, especially in the real estate industry, I found that there’s a there’s this mentality of smart person, that they come off as though they’re really going to go somewhere and do something with their career. But they have this it’s it’s not exactly paralysis of analysis, which is sort of a another affliction. But this one is, I call it the getting ready to get ready syndrome, right? They’re always preparing. And you know that someday, if they ever go out and make a presentation, which may never happen, it’s gonna be amazing, because they’re just going to have all their ducks in the row. They’re going to have all the latest tools and all the greatest looking stuff and the best materials and they’re gonna know exactly what to say. But they never do one.

Peter Shallard 54:36
Absolutely. I think it’s people like that, who keep the productivity software industry in business, right? downloading, like all of the latest To Do List apps. Oh, yeah. Endless systems where you can categorize all of your best intentions and file them away so that they never actually get accomplished. It’s, so that’s what we try and we try and do the like antithesis of that. That’s kind of my focus. So yeah, but yeah, it’s a huge issue. That one Hold, getting getting ready to get ready. And then one day you’ll almost be ready planning, brainstorming can be a part of that as well. I think we, at least when people are starting new businesses, there’s a fine line between creating the master plan and actually just jumping in and doing it. And yeah, I just can’t talk enough about the learning curve of entrepreneurship. I think that the number one reason people get obsessed with these systems and planning and getting ready is because they’re hoping to take actions that will insulate them from making mistakes and having to learn things the hard way. And then so there’s that’s going on, on the one hand, and on the other hand, we look at every successful entrepreneur in the history of the planet, and they all unanimously tell us that they got spanked, they learn things the hard way, they got educated on the streets, they got beat up, they pick themselves up, they got up again, they kept on going. So that’s the reality of business success from the people who have done it. But then on the other hand, there’s the kind of like this, this urge that people just starting out, have to avoid all of that. And I just encourage those folks, if you’re one of them listening to this step back, look at yourself planning and preparing to get started and ask yourself, Am I trying to avoid a learning experience? Because if you are like it’s inevitable, just dive into it. That’s gonna happen anyway. So you might as well you know, embrace it,

Jason Hartman 56:22
you might as well do it. And if you’re going to fail, fail forward and fail quickly. And you know, just it’s so cheap to fail nowadays, oh, my goodness, the internet, the internet has lowered the cost of failure to basically zero I know, and it’s just, it’s, it’s a great time to experiment with things because it’s cheap to do it. Whereas in the old days, you’d have to put 100 grand into something to try it out, if not more than that, obviously. So that’s a great point, Peter, this has been a wonderfully enlightening conversation, and you are the shrink for entrepreneurs, I can, I can see that you, you do a lot of value. So if anyone wants to find you, of course, the websites you gave out, but you can just google shrink for entrepreneurs, and you come right up as the first result. So absolutely, yeah. That’s fascinating. Well, hey, keep up the good work. And thank you for joining us today and sharing some some great insights with our listeners.

Peter Shallard 57:14
Yeah, thanks for having me. And, you know, for everybody who’s listening into this, I’m super stoked that you’re kind of you’re committing to an entrepreneurial journey. I think that I like to kind of wrap up with this thought, I think that the world is kind of hitting in a lot of interesting and slightly scary places. And I’m stoked. I think that entrepreneurs are coming up to coming up with answers to some of our most pressing, pressing questions. So when we talk about this whole, like overcoming the learning curve, just do it, embrace it, all that type stuff. The reason that, you know, that, that I and certainly I’m probably speaking for Jason here, too, are encouraging people to do this kind of stuff is we need you to do it. We need more entrepreneurs. So yeah, make it happen. Excellent point. Thanks for having me, Jason. All right. Thanks, Peter.

Jason Hartman 58:04
I’m Jason Hartman. And I’d like to invite you to our very first two day conference in beautiful Hawaii. Many of our attendees are making a vacation out of this event, you will learn the most innovative strategies for real estate investing available today. We have helped thousands of people invest in properties around the us and we can help you do it too. So I hope you’ll join us and happy investing. Thank you so much for listening. Please be sure to subscribe so that you don’t miss any episodes. Be sure to check out the show’s specific website and our general website heart and Mediacom for appropriate disclaimers and Terms of Service. Remember that guest opinions are their own. And if you require specific legal or tax advice, or advice and any other specialized area, please consult an appropriate professional. And we also very much appreciate you reviewing the show. Please go to iTunes or Stitcher Radio or whatever platform you’re using and write a review for the show we would very much appreciate that. And be sure to make it official and subscribe so you do not miss any episodes. We look forward to seeing you on the next episode.