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Innovative Tax Savings with Rich Dad Advisor Tom Wheelwright

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Jason Hartman hosts Rich Dad Advisor, Tom Wheelwright. They have a discussion about legally avoiding taxes through various practices such as being a real estate professional. They talk about Opportunity Zones and whether they truly present opportunities. They end the discussion on why taxes are higher when you retire.

Announcer 0:04
Welcome to the heroic investing show. As first responders we risk our lives every day our financial security is under attack. Our pensions are in a state of emergency. A single on duty incident can alter or erase our earning potential instantly and forever. We are the heroes of society. We are self reliant and we need to take care of our own financial future. The heroic investing show is our toolkit of business and investing tactics on our mission to financial freedom.

Gary Pinkerton 0:39
Welcome to the heroic investing show, a podcast for first responders, members, the military, veterans, and anyone looking to improve their financial future and gain some freedom with their time. We teach America’s heroes how to build passive income, build their startup business and safely grow wealth through real estate and other alternative investments. We have current and prior First Responders put protections systems and a team in place to help them build a life where they can focus on their passion, that service or product that they’re uniquely gifted to share with others, making the world a better place for all of us. My name is Gary Pinkerton and I co host this show with Jason Hartman. This is Episode 232. Episode 232. This is Jason interviewing Rich Dad advisor and author of tax free wealth Tom wheelwright, and they’re digging into the tax law change that occurred in 2018. So this articles are this episodes a little bit older, but it’s not so bad. Oh, hold on. I heard it for the first time a few months ago. He’s been a speaker at Jason’s meet the masters. He’s spoken numerous times on the real estate guys summit at sea that I’ve attended. And he is a perennial favorite at our insurance based financing, summer event or advisor. summit called prosperity economics movement that’s put on by Todd Lankford, Kim Butler and Patrick Donahoe, in Park City every year. He’s a really good friend, close friend. And I just love everything that the man talks about primarily because I’m so focused on helping individuals save taxes because I firmly believe that entrepreneurs and people that are out there adding value to the world know a lot better about how and how to spend the money that they earn and what to put it towards to further the economy, to improve things. I believe in my heart in my soul, that big government does not help when they try to put programs in place to redistribute wealth to

Gary Pinkerton 2:45
you know, create or focus on one program in a district over programs in another district. It just it is it just doesn’t work. Right. I mean, the free economy is what makes things work. And it’s what incentivizes incentivizes individual To perform at their highest level, so big fan of Tom. And so one of the things that Tom talks about in here, I implemented my own life, and he talks about paying taxes at other people’s tax rates. And he says it a little bit different. But we talked about other people’s money all the time, but we don’t talk about other people’s tax rates. And you know, so paying your children, teaching them what the VAT you know, the value of work and the benefit of getting paid for a day’s work and having the freedom to be able to use that money for whatever they want. Paying, perhaps elderly family members. I have my father in law now based on this conversation that Tom had with Jason and then asking Tom about it later, I gave a portion of my company to my father in law, and I’m very proud to have him involved. It’s been, you know, tremendous for me and improving my my company, and it’s been great for him. And again, you know, this new tax law change of 2018 every time out there the first 12th Well, every person, but certainly your children, the first $12,400 in 2019 that they make is not taxed. And then after that they’re taxed at the 10% bracket and the 12% bracket. So if you start to figure out a way to get your children involved in your business, you can save a tremendous amount of money, especially if you live in a high tax place like New Jersey or California, where even the state is starting to really tax you pretty heavily. So I found this stuff fascinating. And I’m a non licensed non CPA licensed groupie about how to save taxes. And it is one of my number one goals on how to help my clients reduce their taxes. So again, they can take those dollars and put them to work in their business in their company to help make make this place a much better, better place out there. I mean, let’s not forget that the experiment I talk about all the time, the 250 year old experiment that our founding fathers put in place where they essentially signed their own death warrant by signing the Declaration of Independence. They were doing that incentivized primarily by high taxes and high taxes that caused them to throw the tea into the Boston Harbor. nothing compared to what we have today. And nothing compared to what our parents if you will, in quotes, Europe, you know, the countries that we look to to see where we’re headed, nothing at all compared to what they’re being taxed at. So I think it’s really, really important to maintain pressure to lower our taxes out there not to give a blank check, to our to our legislators to spend and attacks and listen that that is an appetite that’s not going to go away. And so we need to be the prudent citizens that prudent entrepreneurs out there making sure that we figure out how to control at least our personal economy and then influence the macro economy to if we can, on how to reduce taxes. So huge fan of Tom wheelwright, I think you’re going to get a lot out of this and I’d be happy to discuss with any of you what I’ve done in my own personal family to country Continue to both educate about finances and reduce those taxes along the way. Thank you so much and enjoy Mr. Tom wheelwright.

Jason Hartman 6:06
Hey, it’s my pleasure to welcome a returning guests back to the show, and that is none other than Tom wheelwright. He will be speaking at our upcoming meet the masters of income property event, and we’re looking forward to having him. He spoke a couple of years ago at one of our venture lions mastermind events to a small group just really enjoyed his talk. He of course, is the author of tax free wealth is part of the rich dad advisor series with Robert Kiyosaki. It’s good to have him back. Tom, welcome. How are you

Tom Wheelwright 6:33
doing? Great, Jason. Always good to be with you.

Jason Hartman 6:35
Yep. Good to have you. And I saw you in Dallas. We shared the stage actually a few weeks ago at Ryan Moran’s event. He’s a good friend of mine, and that’s capitalism calm and got to talking and you know, I really enjoyed your talk, as I always do. Let’s talk about a few things today. You know, bonus depreciation, maybe touch on opportunity zones, just a little bit pass through deductions and what to do. I think this is going to be hot. By the way, what to do if you can’t, if you can’t become a real estate professional? We’ve done a lot of shows on how to become a real estate professional. But what if you just can’t qualify? Alright, how’s that sound?

Tom Wheelwright 7:12
Sounds great. I’m pretty bad smell that last one because I can’t qualify like that a lot of I’ve learned a lot of figuring out how to deal with that because I can’t qualify personally. Yeah,

Jason Hartman 7:24
good deal. Okay. Okay, well, that’s a good topic. You want to start with that one, actually.

Tom Wheelwright 7:27
Yeah, sure. Let’s go for it. The interesting thing about this whole real estate professional passive loss issue is that people get hung up on passive losses and they go Well, look, I can’t pass a loss is not deductible unless I’m a real estate professional and that’s just patently wrong. Okay, that is incorrect. A passive loss. All it means is that you can only deduct it against passive income. All right, so you’re thinking okay, and rental real estate, unless you’re a real estate professional, creates passive losses here, if you’re going to learn Average, especially with bonus depreciation, you’re going to end up with a loss. And it’s going to be a passive loss if you can’t be a real estate professional if you can’t meet those rules, so then the question is, okay, so how do I take advantage of that loss currently? Now, obviously, eventually you’re going to get that loss because once you sell the property in a taxable transaction, you get to use all those losses. So it’s not like you’re losing that benefit. The question is, so here’s the question. We’ll talk about this more in meet the masters. The question is, okay, so if I can’t turn the passive loss into a ordinary loss by being a real estate professional, the question is, how can I turn some of my income into passive income, right, and it’s and then action. People mess and that’s what we’ll talk about that we don’t have time today. We’ll talk about that and meet the Masters is how do I turn my other income into passive comes all I have to do, I don’t have to be a real estate professional, I just have to get my other income to be passive income. If I can do that, then I can still use the loss. Right, right. Okay,

Jason Hartman 9:11
so the loss, the tax loss, I should say and, and, you know, I just want to preface this whole discussion with, of course, income property is the most tax favored asset class in America. We just love it real estate professional has always been kind of considered the holy grail for income property tax benefits. So that’s why we’re talking about it. We’ve done many podcasts on that topic over the years. And it’s interesting that you yourself cannot qualify as a real estate professional. And that all kind of depends on you know, how much time you spend where your income comes from, and so forth. So what you’re saying Tom, and this is just a beautiful philosophy on it, is look, maybe you really can’t qualify, okay, you can’t become a real estate professional unless you retire right or something like that. Or, or you got a non working spouse, you know, only right you need to and that’s, that’s a cool deal. But if you can shift some of your income from the active income column or the active income bucket to the passive income column, then you can offset these passive depreciation losses and depreciation is the best tax benefit of all because it’s a non cash write off. It’s like a phantom right off. So we love it as real estate investors. Give us a little hint about that. I know it’s complicated and you know, it’s gonna be great when you’re on stage and you have a whiteboard, you know, PowerPoint slides and all the all the tools to demonstrate but

Tom Wheelwright 10:31
give us a little hint. Most people who invest in real estate, they’re not w two employees. So first of all, husband and wife w two full time and you have nothing else going on other than real estate, you’re gonna have a tough time creating passive income because w two wages can never be passive. So that’s a challenge, okay? It’s not impossible. Okay. There actually are some things you could do, but it’s really challenging. But most people that I find and our clients are literally, I mean, I did my weekly webinar the other night, and did a little survey and 95% of the people on the call, we had a lot of people on the call were real estate investors. So we deal with a lot of real estate investors, that is our specialty. So the thing is, though, is that most of these people also own a business? Okay? And it’s when you own a business that you have to think, okay, now, I’m always going to be active in that business. But who do I have around me? That might not be active in that business? For example, do I have children? Do I have parents? Do I have other people that maybe could have an ownership interest in the business in some way that I still control? and yet they’re never going to be involved in the business? I mean, I’ll give you a really good example. Let’s say that you’ve got an elderly parent that you’re, you’re supporting. Hmm, why not have them on some of your Your business and some of your real estate. Yeah, right right. And now they’re passive. Mm hmm. So their ownership is passive. So sometimes it’s just who owns the business I mean, one of the things that we forget is that we got all these one of the big assets I think one of the most under utilized assets that people have is other people’s tax brackets

Jason Hartman 12:22
that’s good okay other p o p p. o p to other people’s tax bracket be there you go. Other people’s

Tom Wheelwright 12:29
tax bracket. I mean, like your children have tax brackets, your parents have tax brackets, you might have another family member or somebody else that you’re supporting. They have tax brackets, and you know, why not take advantage of the people that you’re going to be? You want around you anyway, if you don’t mind. Be if you don’t mind them having some involvement in your finances, right that you can control by the way, mine show you how you can control it right so you can still control it completely. In fact, you can make sure they never get it. Money, if you want to do it that way, it’s really just an ownership function. So it’s, it takes some planning, don’t get me wrong, it takes some planning. You know, there’s some eyes to dot and some T’s to cross and not everybody will want to do this. But I’ll tell you, this is how I do it.

Jason Hartman 13:14
So this is what I do my my kids are big real estate owners because of this good stuff. Well, I can’t wait to see you kind of demonstrate that on stage at our event. So touch on opportunity zones a little bit I’ve sort of said I think are kind of overrated and overhyped it a little bit, especially the funds because a fund is the same, you know, commandment number three problem, thou shalt maintain control and you’re you’re relinquishing control, but you can do it directly. You know, there are some perks and clarifications, definitely it’s not completely without benefit, of course, I mean, hey, it’s called an opportunity zone. Do you want to touch on that for a moment?

Tom Wheelwright 13:49
Yeah, just a couple of things. You know, first of all, the two big benefits are if you invest in an opportunity zone directly and you hold that investment For over 10 years, then you could end up with no tax when you sell it. And that’s actually a bigger deal than people think. Because you go, Well, I could always do a 1031. Yes. But when you do a 1031, you don’t get new depreciation. So let’s say I bought a million dollar property and it grows in value to $3 million. Okay, yes, I could then roll that into a $3 million, or even probably more at that point, because you got equity, you can get more debt. But I could roll that into a new property, but that $2 million of gain, I’m not going to get depreciation on that. Okay, when I roll that into the new property in an opportunity zone, you’d be able to sell the property for three $3 million, take the whole $3 million, and you’ve got whole new depreciation on that $2 million of gain. So there is actually some tax benefit beyond a 1031 exchange, even if you’re staying in real estate. The other big one I think that people don’t really think about a lot is that you can roll over any capital gain into an opportunity zone. So that means that you could have had a big stock sale, your house may be beyond the $500,000 $250,000 exclusion limit, you could have capital gain from your house, you could have capital gain from your business. You could even have capital gain from real estate that maybe you don’t want to roll over all of the proceeds into a new property, but you only want to roll over the game. In an opportunity zone, you only have to roll over the gain. So if you sell stock for me in dollars, and you have $300,000 of gain, you can roll over $300,000 a game now you can’t roll over stock game any other way. So you can’t roll over a business game. So this is a way to roll over game and it is a roll over you will be taxed on it eventually. It’s just a deferral. Right. But you could roll over capital gain from things other than real estate, which I think is really where a lot of people have been investing in the stock market and they’re thinking, well, the stock market’s not going to Stay up here forever and ever. And they’re taking their gains, then, okay. I mean, opportunities don’t make sense. The other thing you and I were talking about is that there actually are some nice places to invest. Yeah,

Jason Hartman 16:11
yeah, they’re not they’re not all these blighted areas. There’s a lot of bad ones, but but they’re not all bad.

Tom Wheelwright 16:16
There are a lot of bad ones. But they’re, you know, I mean, like Amazon, their new place in Long Island is at least partially in and opportunities. Oh, now the

Jason Hartman 16:23
real question is, are they going to actually end up there because a big war going on?

Tom Wheelwright 16:29
That is a question the Congress, the congressional delegates from New York seem to be against having business and new jobs. So that’s a rather interesting New York and California are not known to be business friendly by any stretch. It’s really interesting, really, really interesting. Anyway, so you know, if you’re careful about where you invest, Now, remember, you actually have to develop the property. This isn’t like going and buy a building.

Jason Hartman 16:53
I’m so glad you said that because you got to take a pretty active role here and increase the basis. You got to basically double it. Right?

Tom Wheelwright 17:01
Right, you have to double the basis, not not the entire property just of the improvements. So the land, you know, you don’t have to double the basis of the land you just have to. So basis is basically what you paid for it. So basically, if you pay, I don’t know, a million dollars for this property. And $500,000 is the land and $500,000 is the building, then you have to add $500,000 of improvements. For the you know, double the base, the building spaces is 500,000. You need to double that to me knock down, okay, and put up something new, or you need to really go in and do a complete rehab refurbishing, right.

Jason Hartman 17:36
So it’s you got to really be like a pretty active investor who’s ready to be a developer.

Tom Wheelwright 17:42
Yeah, you really have to be a developer.

Jason Hartman 17:43
Right? Right. Okay, good to know. Okay, talk a little bit Tom about the past through last issue, or did you really kind of cover that I need me now.

Tom Wheelwright 17:52
So this is something that nobody in real estate is talking about. And there’s reasons for it that people aren’t talking about So we all know about the corporate tax rate reduction went from 35% 21%. what some of us have heard, some people have heard Not a lot of people actually, is that business owners, they get a deduction equal to 20% of the net profit from their business. Okay, that’s called the pass through deduction. It’s actually called the qualified business income deduction. What most real estate investors don’t know is that this applies to them. Okay, this 20% deduction now you have to have net income from the property. But there are a lot of real estate investors. They’re like, six, seven years into their property. They’ve depreciated all the contents of the property. They took big depreciation in the early years, and now they actually or they’ve reduced their leverage because they’re concerned about the market or they paid down their loan. So now they actually have positive net income from their real estate. If you have positive net income from your real estate, you may qualify for 20% of that being a deduction. You know, the rules are pretty they’re detailed. Okay. And you kind of have to walk through them pretty carefully to make sure that you know, you get everything that you’re going to get and maximize that. But I think there are a lot of people that show positive net taxable income on their on their real estate, and they don’t know that there’s a potential 20% deduction out there.

Jason Hartman 19:17
Yeah. Okay. Good to know, good to know. I’m sure you’re gonna get a ton of questions about this, at meet the Masters coming up. But everybody always wants to talk about the real estate professional stuff a little more. And, you know, like you said, What to what to do if you can’t become a real estate professional? Anything you want to say about what is you can become one, you know, is there anything more on that? Is there anything new on that that’s worth talking about?

Tom Wheelwright 19:41
Well, if you can be a real estate professional, first of all, documentation is going to be key for you. Because one thing I can promise is that if you claim that you’re a real estate professional and you get audited, they will disallow it. They will disallow you will have to prove, okay, remember, this is guilty. until proven innocent, you will have to prove that you are a real estate professional. And the courts have been holding pretty consistently, that you need really good documentation to prove that not only do you have over seven or 50 hours and more than your other businesses, which is the general rule, but that those 750 hours are really qualified real estate time and not only investor time. So there’s a difference between being actively involved in real estate and being a passive investor. And so you do have to protect yourself in the case of an audit because I can just guarantee you I’ve never seen a taxpayer be audited, that claimed real estate professional that was not challenged on that. So I think that’s actually a big one. You know, of course, the other one is the big opportunity if you are a real estate professional. Now, bonus depreciation just becomes huge for you. Because I mean, I’ll give me an example. I’m just working with a client, brand new client and we’re first meeting, I’m I’m talking to them. And it turns out that I think they can qualify for real estate professional. And because they qualify for a real estate professional and because of their investments during 2018, I think they’re going to eliminate a four to $500,000 tax liability, I mean, eliminate it.

Jason Hartman 21:19
So

Tom Wheelwright 21:20
we’re talking about really big numbers when you add bonus depreciation, I mean, talk about an amazing tax shelter. So consider this. Jason, I remember when we when I was at your group A few years ago, talked about investing through an IRA. So consider this, that there are people if they’re real, if they qualify as real estate professionals, especially that if they have money in an IRA, that pulling it out, and investing in real estate will produce a net tax benefit to them, even after considering the income tax and the penalty on the IRA. I mean, that’s how big bonus depreciation As you can actually generate a net, you’re better off tax wise by pulling it out of the IRA than leaving in the IRA. We never had that before.

Jason Hartman 22:09
Yeah, well, that’s an interesting thing that you say that because I agree with you, and I’ve read this. I’ve never talked to you about it, but I’ve read it in your work. I think these qualified plans are actually a bit overrated, okay. And I know Garrett Sutton has kind of parroted your work on that too, and, you know, shared it in some of his writings and speaking, and sometimes taking an IRA penalty is even worth it just to do a regular investment. Now, I wouldn’t do that today because the market is getting, you know, pretty frothy, you know, especially, you know, and it’s definitely softening in that, you know, high end cyclical markets. But, you know, when we were just coming out of the Great Recession, and everything was so cheap. You know, we had some stories of clients who did that. It’s like, okay, I’ll pay the tax and take it what is it 10% penalty and additional tax. If I can buy relatively new houses for $35 a square foot in these great markets, heck, I don’t care. Right.

Tom Wheelwright 23:09
But with bonus depreciation, you actually end up not paying any tax or penalty, you actually end up with a tax refund by doing this, huh? Yeah. So it’s like, What do you mean, I don’t have to pay tax? No, you don’t have to pay tax on that IRA withdrawal, no tax. And the net tax benefit can be more than the penalty. So you can actually end up putting money in your pocket. This is so bizarre, you can actually end up putting money in your pocket by pulling the money out of your IRA and investing that money into a real estate project. Now, you know, obviously, real estate professional, you’ve got to be able to use that loss in that same year, and you make sure you match up the years properly. I’ve run the numbers 100 times and it’s just like, Are you kidding me? That’s amazing. That’s just amazing. And you know, the US is the only you know, I travel a lot with Kiyosaki and you The US is one of the very few countries that allow, actually that allowed depreciation on us property at all. But now we allow bonus depreciation on used property. So it’s like, this is like, if you’re not taking advantage of this, I mean, you’re just missing an incredible opportunity to reduce or eliminate your taxes.

Jason Hartman 24:18
Yeah, that’s definitely true. And it’s, it’s pretty darn fascinating. When you talk about the qualified plans in general, can you just share a little bit about you know, what you wrote about that in your book? Because I think that’s pretty topical, since we just mentioned it because, you know, one thing people don’t realize, look, if you don’t have a Roth, and you know, I’m not a big fan, honestly, because I’m just too paranoid that they’ll change the law and, you know, the government’s got so much debt, they’ll just start looking for low hanging fruit to tax and they might just change the rules, right? So I didn’t do a Roth myself. And you know, you’re gonna pay tax on that money. Eventually, you know, it either 59 and a half, or 70. Right, right. So it’s not like that money has tax. Free gets to accumulate tax free. Yeah, but it’s not tax free, you know, you’re gonna have to pay you either paid it already and did a Roth conversion, or you’re gonna pay the tax later. And, and the funny kind of ridiculous assumption is that you will be poor in retirement I want to be richer in retirement not poor. Well,

Tom Wheelwright 25:20
that’s the only way it works is that you’re going to be in a lower tax bracket when you retire than you are when you’re working. And the challenge with that, of course, is that when you’re working, you end up you normally have a lot of deductions, you have business deductions, you have children have a home mortgage, you have all sorts of deductions, that when you retire, you know, you’re not thinking that you’re going to have a lot of those deductions. I had a client that he put heavy into qualified plans. And he became a client the year he retired. This is one of my very earliest clients. And he started screaming at me he said, I’ve never paid so tax so much tax since I came to you. And I said, Hold on. You’re paying all this stuff. Tax because it’s all coming out of your profit sharing plan. You have no more deductions. This has nothing to do with me, pal. We had this big argument over it, because he’s going, I just can’t believe how much tax I’m paying. I’ve never paid this much tax. Well, he owned a business in real estate for years and years and years, he retires, and all he does is have money coming out of qualified plan, which is ordinary income. So you’re right that, you know, I think that’s a if you want to be port. Sure. Yeah, I’ll do it. Let me tell you one other by the way. One other challenge with a Roth IRA. I said, two challenges with Roth IRAs, when it comes to investing and one is that it’s really hard to leverage. Okay, so if you’re looking at any kind of serious leverage, certainly more than 50% loan to value, it’s really hard to do that in a Roth IRA because you cannot personally guarantee that loan. So that’s a really tough one to do. The other issue is is let’s say that you invest in something and it goes south. Okay. So you did get a deduction when you put the money into a Roth, right. But it let’s say it goes south and now it’s worthless. Guess what? No deduction. Wow. So you didn’t get any deduction going in and now you don’t get a deduction for the worthlessness of the investment was also I’ve seen people invest in hard money loans. I’ve seen people invest in other projects and they lost their investment. Well, it’s bad enough to lose your investment but to lose your investment and not get a tax benefit is like salt in the wound,

Jason Hartman 27:30
right? Yeah, really is that’s just ridiculous. Yeah. I think these plans, you know, when they when they started in, I guess, the early 70s, I believe. They were basically like this old idea, and it was promoted by wall street. Look, you’ll be in a lower tax bracket when you retire. I mean, first of all, do you think the tax brackets will actually be lower when you retire? First of all, that’s the first thing because the government is starving for money. And number two, who wants to be poor when they retire? It is to be richer. So no, and you know, you said

Tom Wheelwright 27:59
earlier in the show, Jason, that is one of my hot buttons. And that is, you know, when you talk about a qualified plan, what you want to do is just write down next to it. government controlled good words. Yeah. So, you know, you talked about I think it was your third rule, right is you want to be in control. Right? Okay. Well, that’s the biggest issue with any kind of qualified plan, because the government tells you how much money you can put in, they tell you what you can do with it. They tell you how you can do with it. They can tell you, they tell you, when you have to take it out. They tell you how much you can take out. They tell you what tax rate you’re going to pay when you take it out. There’s so much control from the government and just going, you know, my experience with most real estate investors who are really at their core entrepreneurs, they want to be in control of their life and you want to do something that’s completely opposite. Controlling your life. And you use a qualified plan. Yeah, no, exactly.

Jason Hartman 28:55
I agree. I agree. I just I just think they’re, they’re overrated. Good stuff, Tom. give out your website you will be speaking at meet the masters. We’re looking forward to having you there. So but what’s your website

Tom Wheelwright 29:06
I’m looking forward to website is wealth ability calm. Our goal is to help you increase your ability to create wealth. So I love what you’re doing Jason because that’s really what you’re doing is, you know, this is all part of our mission. So wealth ability, calm and you know, anything we can do to help. We’re happy to

Jason Hartman 29:23
good stuff. Tom wheelwright, thanks for joining us.

Tom Wheelwright 29:25
Thanks for having me.

Jason Hartman 29:29
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