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The Short-Term Rental Revolution with Matt Curtis CEO of Smart City Policy Group



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Jason Hartman interviews guest Matt Curtis, founder and CEO of Smart City Policy Group. They talk about the increase in short-term rentals. They go into government policy on short-term rentals and why the government won’t be able to stop this huge shift of rentals. Matt also discusses his ideas on what would happen during economic downturns and if people would still vacation.

Investor 0:00
If you don’t have any investment, real estate investments, you will not have the opportunity to learn to make mistakes and learn from it. And then you will not be able to tell which one is a better investment. I think you just have to get it started somewhere and with the help of your investment counselor, and then keep moving forward.

Announcer 0:18
Welcome to the creating wealth show with Jason Hartman. You’re about to learn a new slant on investing some exciting techniques and fresh new approaches to the world’s most historically proven asset class that will enable you to create more wealth and freedom than you ever thought possible. Jason is a genuine self made multi millionaire who’s actually been there and done it. He’s a successful investor, lender, developer and entrepreneur who’s owned properties in 11 states had hundreds of tenants and been involved in thousands of real estate transactions. This program will help you follow in Jason’s footsteps on the road to your financial independence day. You really can’t Do it. And now here’s your host, Jason Hartman with the complete solution for real estate investors.

Jason Hartman 1:08
Welcome to Episode 1264 1200 and 64. Thanks for joining me today. Today we’re going to talk to Matt Curtis about smart cities, the Smart City policy group, you’ll hear some interesting things on this interview. not directly related to do this, do that when you’re investing in real estate, but more of a macro picture about some things that planning and so forth, the things that need to be dealt with on a big scale, just kind of an interesting conversation for you. But before that, you know, one of my early mentors, who really is responsible for changing my life is one of the big four, the big four great business philosophers, life philosophers, motivational speakers, and that is Denis waitley. I invited him back On the show, he was on the show originally way back at episode number 150. And we replayed that episode as a flashback Friday, once and I invited him back on the show. I heard he wasn’t doing too well. And I hope he’s doing better. He is the last of those four greats still around. I was fortunate years ago to go on a speaking tour with Zig Ziglar and shared the stage with him at a couple of events that was really a privilege, got to talk to zig and have dinner with him. And, you know, he was one of the greats, Jim Rohn. And Earl Nightingale, of course, as well. So those are what I call the Big Four in that field. I just wanted to share one of Denis whateleys poems that had a huge impact on me, should have a huge impact on you, and all of us. It really has a lot to do with this regret that many people feel when they don’t take action on things that are important when they don’t buy that real estate. You know What’s the best time to buy real estate? Well, the best time was many years ago Of course, the second best time is right now. You know, that is it, just thinking of it because it reminded me of the great Denis waitley poem called someday I’ll In other words, I apostrophe Ll but likening it to an island and he says, there is an island fantasy someday I’ll we’ll never see where recession stops, inflation ceases our mortgages paid and our pay increases that someday I’ll where problems and where every piece of mail is from a friend where the children are sweet and already grown, where all the other nations can go it alone, where we all retire at 41 playing backgammon in the island son. most unhappy people look to tomorrow to erase this day’s hardship and sorrow. They put their happiness on layaway, and struggle through a blue today, but happiness cannot be solved. It can’t be earned it can’t be bought. life’s most important revelation is that the journey means more than the destination. Happiness is where you are right now. pushing a pencil or pushing a plow, going to school or standing in line watching and waiting or tasting the wine. If you live in the past you become senile. If you live in the future you’re on Sunday I’ll the fear of results is procrastination. The joy of today is a celebration. You can save you can slave trudging, mile after mile, but you’ll never set foot on your Sunday aisle. When you’ve paid all your dues and putting your time out of nowhere comes another Mount Everest to climb. From this day forward, make it your vow, take some day I’ll and make it your now. I just was reminded of that great poem that influenced me so much at age 17. All of his great work and the other big three. So just wanted to share that with you again today and without further ado, let’s get to our guest and talk about smart cities. It’s my pleasure to welcome Matt Curtis. He is founder and CEO of smart city policy group, otherwise known as SC, PG. And he deals in a lot of interesting areas, and one is the short term rental regulations, and so forth. So let’s dive in. Matt. Welcome. How are you?

Matt Curtis 5:27
I’m terrific. Thanks so much.

Jason Hartman 5:29
And you’re coming to us from Austin, Texas. that correct?

Matt Curtis 5:31
Correct. Yeah, Austin is really become the hub for so many new innovations and new conversations about new technologies and new ideas. That’s true, but

Jason Hartman 5:40
not Airbnb. Right. The climate is rather anti short term rental in Austin from

Matt Curtis 5:48
what I understand, but you know, I mean, Austin’s interesting. Austin is where a lot of Airbnb started in Austin during South by Southwest and some other big festivals that we had here years ago. Of course, how Austin was home to homeaway and headquarters to homeaway while they were operating as homeaway and grew as homeaway, and I was the head of homeaway and later Expedia global government affairs worldwide and worked on short term rental regulations around the world. Austin did create some regulations in 2013, that did a great job of achieving compliance with registration, getting people into the program. But they recreated those rules back in about 2015 2016. And yeah, they’re having a harder time achieving compliance with those, but like a lot of cities, they’re going to continue to tinker with those rules and regulations until they get it right. Yeah,

Jason Hartman 6:35
yeah, good stuff. So tell the listeners what you do. You told me I’ll share a little bit. It’s pretty interesting. What do you do when someone asks you that at a cocktail party? What do you say?

Matt Curtis 6:43
Yeah, you know me, it’s fascinating. I was the head of homeaway global government affairs and Expedia there for a long time, and I was the short term rental guy. And that was after I came on the heels of my roles as deputy to the previous two mayors of Austin and Austin was the it city in the world. So many people are looking at Austin talking about Austin is the best practice Mecca city that did so many things, right? So I was talking about, you know, local government policy for a long time, and then talk about short term rental policy for a long time around the world. Now I’ve taken those two things, and I created my own consulting practice. We’re based here in Austin, but we’ve got a variety of different folks that work with us in Washington, DC and the Bay Area in different corners of the world. Where we’re focused on is helping cities and travel organizations like destination marketing organizations, and private sector entities create good policy. Mostly we’re focused on short term rentals. That’s the anchor of our work, but we work on other emerging technologies as well. So we’ve done a lot of work on air taxis ride hailing scooters and so on.

Jason Hartman 7:47
So air taxis meaning Well, when I was at the con Film Festival year before last, I took Uber copter twice so I I summoned a helicopter with my phone. It was pretty cool experience. And that’s what you mean when you say air taxis, right?

Matt Curtis 8:02
sort of the next big thing air taxis electric, vertical takeoff and landing jets. It’s a little different than a helicopter. It’s actually a vertical flying jet that can land right on the roof top of your development. So if you’re an urban core real estate developer, you’re wanting to have a new electric vertical takeoff and landing jet pad right on the roof of your building. This will be a new amenity, a new search criteria in the MLS. Do you have a vertical What do you call it? electric vertical takeoff and landing jets? Most people call them air taxis. Yeah. Okay, and they’re just a few years off in being seen in American cities. But they’re flying in different corners of the world and people are talking about how this is going to change the your ability to quickly get down to the airport, but quickly get out to the ballpark. They might spend a little bit more because maybe that Uber takes $45 to get to the airport. Maybe you’re spending $45 to get to the airport. as well, but you’re getting there in five or 10 minutes. Yeah, there’s five other people in the vehicle with you. And they’re all spending $45. So the total bill is a few hundred bucks to get out to the airport. But you’re splitting that with all the other travelers. And that’s going to be really cool. And it’s going to be neat to see that we’re going to see the Jetsons in America in our lifetime, and that means it’s an amazing time to be alive. As I always say, that’s, that’s really cool. When do you really anticipate that though? You know, they’ve been talking about flying cars for decades and still don’t have them. I mean, you know, what are we talking about? For real really seeing that in the marketplace, your prediction, if you read this to, you know, General periodicals right now, you’ll see that most people are talking about in the next few years. So probably, you know, I’m guessing three to five years off, you will see some activity flying in different American cities. Now, some cities are going to be slow to allow this to be adopted. Some cities are going to create, you know, very strict limits to it. So that most of these Vehicles are going to be flying within existing helicopter flight patterns. She don’t have to create anything new to allow them.

Jason Hartman 10:07
Well, and these are self driving to

Matt Curtis 10:09
right. Well, that’s the goal at some point in the future is that they are artificial intelligence. But in the beginning, most American cities are probably going to say they have to have a pilot and most of the companies that are creating them already are aware that they have to have piloted vehicles to get started. So like lilium

Jason Hartman 10:26
is one of those companies right? They have the five seater all electric jet air taxi amazing camp. Well, we’ll see can’t wait to see that happen. Why is it difficult for cities and you know, the constituencies there, right that residents to get their heads around short term rentals. I mean, you know, I ultimately think even in cities that are in municipalities that resist this, it’s going to win. It’s kind of like the places that resist ride hailing, you know, lift Uber, etc. You know, it’s Going to ultimately win, and it’s going to be accepted. Right is that that’s your thinking too, I’m guessing right?

Matt Curtis 11:06
Yeah, sure. But I also don’t think that most cities are absolutely opposed or on the other side of short term rentals winning there on the side of just trying to figure out what is good policy? And how do you create good policy that meets the demand of the community and meets the demand of the travelers? Very few cities have said no, to short term rentals all the way around. Most cities allow some amount of short term rental activity. The problem that you have is a variety of things. Obviously, the traditional short term rental industry that had been around for years was professionally managed vacation rental managed properties in a lot of beautiful destinations that you would like to go. And professional property managers did an incredible job making sure that they were achieving compliance, paying taxes and following all the rules and regulations. But all of a sudden, the internet allowed People to rent out homes and cities that might not have traditionally been vacation destination. So that might have brought people to more what I would call cities of interest, places that are cool places to go visit, you normally probably wouldn’t pack up the family and the station wagon and drive there, you know, back in the 70s. And now all the sudden you’re able to rent properties in cities of interest, which I still think is important. It’s the demand of the traveler. The challenges that you have not a lot of great practices out there to copy because there aren’t a lot of great policies that have achieved compliance. He had to be very fair, I think early on, we had probably the biggest player in the industry, Airbnb, which might not have been thinking clearly about long term policy creation. I think there was probably a focus on growing the business. I love Airbnb, and I think they’re doing a great job now of working with cities and dmos on creating good policy, but I think 10 years ago, eight years ago, nine years ago, there was probably a lot of discussion around what’s create policy in cities like San Francisco, Amsterdam, and York and Portland, where primary home short term rental was allowed. But the traditional vacation or property managed properties were not allowed. And I would argue that the city’s probably should have taken the other approach, allow the professional property managed properties, because then you know, you’re achieving compliance with those folks. And then if you wanted to add on other types of short term rental activity, you could do that and certainly should consider doing that. But start with what is the most compliant core the most compliant kind of center of the atom?

Jason Hartman 13:48
Yeah. The thing is, though, we really got to take this from the homeowners perspective. I remember when I lived in La Jolla in San Diego La Jolla, right? I would see signs In so many yards of these high end homes, a lot of them, you know, homes that had been remodeled and that are all nice and you know, and torn down and they built mcmansions, or houses that are just there in their original state where you can tell that the owners have lived there for decades and decades and decades and their house wealthy now, right signs in the yards that say, you know, this is a neighborhood, it’s not for short term rentals, all kinds of things just in you know, I can see the point of view, why do they want to put transients next door to them making noise, you know, new neighbors every week, they want a stable neighborhood, right? So you can see it from both sides, like on one side on the capitalist, and I like innovation. And you know, they said, it’s a great new idea and a whole new economy really, that’s been created. But on the other side, you know, if I owned that $3 million house for the last four decades, and I want to stay there, I don’t want to be disturbed by these transients in and out every Every weekend, oh, it’s tough. I mean, it’s really a really tough thing. And I would even go a step further and point out that, you know, we had a global recession, we had a lot of housing stock that wasn’t being built the way that it should have been. And we have cities, especially in America that are operating with 60 year old zoning codes, and planning directives that really weren’t addressing the changing demands for city housing stock. So you’ve got this strain on housing stock. And you’ve got these folks that you think are invading my neighborhood. And it becomes pretty easy to connect the dots and get to your attacking my housing value, you’re driving up my property value, sometimes to the point of it’s making it difficult for me to afford my property taxes. And you’re also limiting the total amount of inventory in a community. Now, I actually don’t believe that’s true all the time. And I think that studies have shown that while it might be a conversation that is being had that over All the amount of housing stock that’s really being impacted and many communities that are having this conversation, it tends to be less than 1% of the total housing stock and often less than point 1% of the total housing stock in the community. That’s a great point. So let’s talk about a couple of things there. Number one from the supply side of the equation, okay, so I own a lot of rental investment property, regular traditional long term rental property, right. And I have really liked and tried to sort of move around and live in some different states and cities the past eight years or so, I just wanted to move around the country and see what it’s like in different places to see where I ultimately want to live. And I tell you, when I moved to Florida last year, I wanted to do the same plan I’d been doing since 2011. When I gave up my big house in Orange County, California, and I rented and I really enjoyed reading because you rent a high end home The rent to value ratio is so in favor of the tenant, it’s wonderful. But this time, I couldn’t find a decent place to rent, I wanted to find a nice high end rental again, and move in and, and have that rent to value ratio very much in my favor as the tenant and own lots of little inexpensive properties that I rent other people and the rent to value ratios in my favor as the investor owner, right. So I consider that a nice arbitrage. This time, I couldn’t find anything. And my theory is that they’d all been gobbled up by short term rentals. Everybody’s taking their high end home, turning it into a short term rental. And I was really discouraged. I had to end up buying a house right, which I really didn’t want to do. That seemed to be true because I kept looking and looking and looking and oh, you rent this one out? No, we just want to do short term rental. You know, we’ll rent it in the summer when nobody wants to come to Florida. You can stay there for six months, but then you gotta move because we can make too much money. aramean being it The high season in the winter, right. So, right. That’s one side. Yeah. speak to that for a minute. And then I got another side to

Matt Curtis 18:06
ask you about. Yeah, no, certainly, you know, and it’s interesting. You got to look at it from the perspective of data. So we’re having a conference on August 16, of smart city policy summit, to conference on short term rental regulations. And the housing analytics firm, rc elco is going to be releasing their latest study on the impacts of housing by short term rentals. And when you look at some of these studies, you know, studies that are done by statisticians, you know, people who do the science of these sorts of things. They can be mind boggling, you know, 15 pages of stuff that might turn some of our heads inside out as we read them, but you finally get down to it. It tends to be the end. I mean, short term rentals are certainly involved in the overall real estate conversation. But more often than not in cities like Denver or Oh, I don’t know, you know, even a San Francisco or Los Angeles, the total number of short term rentals is actually very active short term rentals that are non owner occupied property and professionally managed someone second home that people are fearing are stealing housing from the housing stock tends to be something in the neighborhood like point 00 1% of the overall housing stock. It sure doesn’t feel that way.

Jason Hartman 19:23
But okay.

Matt Curtis 19:26
So so it’s a challenging because what what I think a lot of folks will say it feels like in a Denver, for instance, where you have something in the neighborhood of 400,000 dwellings is it maybe had about 400 non owner occupied or professionally managed short term rentals when they were having their regulatory conversation back in about 2015 but might not feel that way is because you may have another 2000 owner occupied primary short term rentals where you do have stories of people who are rolling up and down the street with their bags looking for their house. I think the big important thing To discuss here is, if this is the demand of the traveler, where else are we going to send up? Because these people are now looking for the experience of staying in a neighborhood, staying in a nice apartment staying in a home, where they might be able to enjoy Denver or Nashville or Los Angeles for several more days than their typical one night stay in a hotel. Yeah, maybe two. Right. You know, the hotel stays in America, the average hotel stays in America was was something like 1.2 nights, and the average number of guests was like 1.1. So this one person staying for a night, maybe two, maybe you’re with your partner or spouse. Well, now, when you look at short term rentals, the average length this day is like five and a half nights. You’re with two or three people, so probably a family. And that means a huge economic impacts of the community. Sure. And you know, a lot of folks say, well, it’s not worth it for the change in my community character, but at the end of the day, Families now got the demand for that type of travel, and they’re not going to take their wife and their child and stick them back in a small little hundred and 60 square foot box of a hotel room for several nights, it’s just not going to happen. So how do you create good policy that achieves both? And I think you got to look to good operators that are operating great short term rentals and all different types that speak to the demand of different travelers and then create policy that speaks to that.

Jason Hartman 21:27
Okay, so a couple things. Number one, what you said may well be true on the stats, but what we find is that Yeah, maybe it’s, you know, a tiny percentage of the overall housing stock of the country or a given city, for example, or a metro area, but it’s concentrated in the prime areas. That’s the thing. If you want to live in a prime area, your housing stock has been, I’d say, I would argue significantly impacted by this trend. Okay. So that’s one thing you don’t even have to respond. It’s good A rhetorical okay.

Matt Curtis 22:00
But actually, I would actually like to because I think there’s, I’ve got

Jason Hartman 22:05
I’ve got a whole nother part of that discussion I want to have, which is on your last point.

Matt Curtis 22:09
Okay, go ahead what I just want to make sure you know, you could create policy that limits the density of properties. And really when we are talking about this, most of the time, we’re talking about residential zones, you know, single family homes. I don’t think about the American South like ranch style homes. We’re probably not really talking so much about commercial mixed use multifamily, because it seems that there is a consensus from American cities that that is a place where short term rental activity could be allowed. Its commercial mixed, use multi families zone, there are different. Yeah, but that’s not

Jason Hartman 22:44
the whole experience you just talked about, but you may have your if you were a family traveling to an urban core, you know, Danny answered the demand those most of those families want to go to the beach in La Jolla or Newport, you know, so, Santa Monica

Matt Curtis 23:00
could solve that problem the beach in La Jolla by density limits, registration, licensure programs, things like that could help mitigate the impact.

Jason Hartman 23:08
But let’s talk about the flip side of the equation, which I think is interesting. And I don’t know how much you track this. But I wonder how much of it is amania? Right? How much of it is just a fad? And when the next recession hits, it’ll sort of settle it out. And you’ll see what’s sort of really there. This is what I mean by that, okay? If you look at the hotel business, and the number of room nights, and you look at the development of hotels, which, you know, Airbnb is, what 10 years old, give or take something like that, you know, of course, you had others before them, but they really were the disrupter that kind of changed the industry, right? And if you look at the number of hotel nights consumed, and you look at the number of beds consumed in Airbnb, or better rooms right consumed in the Airbnb market, you see that there has been a huge increase in both of those numbers coming out of the Great Recession for the last 10 years. Now, is it just that everybody’s feeling really rich right now? And so they’re traveling a lot? Or have we really created a new market, a new type of traveler, a new concept of traveling? And to some extent, I absolutely think we have. And I think you just spoke to that. But the hotels are doing all right. And there’s all this additional new market of supply in the short term rental world. What happens when the recession hits,

Matt Curtis 24:39
you know, that it has to go away? Right, a large part of it, and there’s new inventory in hotels as well. Yeah, no, we’re a lot more hotels. What I’m saying, Yeah, everybody’s doing well. And I think what you said is true. We have created a world where people understand that travel is as beneficial to them as money and they want to go into experiences and they want to see the world and they want to take their family. And frankly, it’s kind of easy to travel right now. We’re also primed to travel through social media and the internet just giving us greater options and greater insight into different parts of the world that we might not have otherwise ever thought of. So we have created a new type of travel, and we have created a new traveler. And the demand is there, the demand is strong. You know, I think if there is another recession of some sort that might kind of have any kind of impact on people’s ability to travel or their ability to rent their homes and invest in homes. I see people giving up other things before they give up the joy of life. And I think they are going to travel as long as they can, even if they do it on a limited income. And I think there are so many people who are renting their homes primary home or second home or an investment property, that they’re willing to take any infusion of travel dollars, even if they take a little bit of a loss for a few years. Compared How much money they might be making.

Jason Hartman 26:01
So this of the supply of beds on planet Earth has increased dramatically in the past 10 years. And when the recession comes in this travel is discretionary. We’re going to see what how much of that market is really there. I think. I don’t think we know yet. I think this answer is very hard to get to right now, in a booming economy. So I think that’s going to tell us something and you know, what you say may be true may not be as big an impact as it would have been in a normal cycle in other times, because things have changed. And, you know, one of the trends that I have talked about only a little, but I think it’s an interesting one, and I think it’s significant is just this concept, that life for everybody, largely because of our things, our technology. Life has become a lot more portable than it’s ever been before. You know, just use like a Sort of a weird example you probably think there are, this is not very significant, but let me just say it. Okay. I always had a big stereo system. Right. Now, I have tiny little devices that have pretty good sound. And you know, I remember in the old days, you had big giant speakers. And, you know, when I moved now I don’t have to move all this big stuff. When I used to go on trips, I used to take lots of cassette tapes to listen to audio books, and a few printed books. And now I just got a laptop and an iPad. You know, it’s just a totally different thing. Like things are much more portable nowadays.

Matt Curtis 27:33
My first trip to Maui was only a few years ago, and I landed in Maui and I saw this couple they were on the same shuttle to the car rental that I was on or something. And I said to them, how are you able to come here for as long as you are here? You know, you’re coming here for three weeks? I mean, what do you do that you’re able to do that? What kind of industry Do you work in how able to stay involved? And they looked at me like I had asked the strangest question. And at the same time, both with using their left hands held up their phones. Yeah, right. Just right here. Yeah, I mean, people are able to work from different parts of the world. And I do think that that adds into the greater conversation about experience and that travelers are seeking experience. I’ll give you an anecdote. When I’ve been talking about short term run regulations around the world for, you know, almost 10 years here, I will talk to the most ardent opponent of short term rentals, whether it’s a neighborhood opponent or an elected official city council member or a mayor that just does not want short term rentals to proliferate in an extreme manner in their community. They’re so you know, serious about the regulations that they want to put in place and maybe even a band, and then you ask them, Do you guys use short term rentals and without fail, they say, Oh, yeah, we use them all the time. So they’re okay to go somewhere else. And they acknowledge that they enjoy using them when they go to the places. I’ve been, in the most hand to hand combat on short term rental regulations. When I was on the side of a industry so late, and I was sitting there saying, guys, you know, there’s got to be a better solution that creates real compliance and achieves the goals you want. And you know, they weren’t seeing it that way. And then the minute that discussion that political dispute was over with, they said, we’re going to be going on a trip in the next few weeks.

Matt Curtis 29:19
Sounds like a difficult,

Jason Hartman 29:21
you know, difficult limousine liberal global warming problem, but I love my big SUV.

Matt Curtis 29:29
You know, you haven’t asked me about hotels, but I travel for work all the time. Yeah. And I stay places for a night or two all the time. Yeah. And I love staying in hotels. We’ve got a specific brand that I love. I love staying in them. I went out of my way in the last day in Memphis, just last week, to go out of my way to tell the manager how much I love this brand new hotel that they just built in a variety of hotel stock that they offer.

Jason Hartman 29:54
They are adapting. I had one of the execs from Marriott, what do they call it vacation? or something. It’s their version of short term rentals, like, you know, more estate type properties. But the hotels just the regular hotels are providing a lot of different options.

Matt Curtis 30:10
So they’re adapting to you know, it’s, it’s capitalism is great, it allocates resources just beautifully, you know, so it’s quite it, but I will say, I’m an older man who had a child late in life, my wife and I, when we travel with this cute little three year old now, my wife, God lover, she will not stay in a hotel room with us for more than one night. She’ll put up with a night, but she will not do more than that. She wants to get a short term rental and here’s why. That child goes to bed at seven. You put her to bed in a hotel room, your only option we learn this the hard way. your only option is to either sit on the side of the bed, plug in your iPads and sit quietly in the dark and hope she falls asleep on the other side of the bed, baby. Yes, yeah. Or you go crowd in the bathroom right now, folks have told me how you know we can go get a hotel. This got more than one bedroom, but man I’ve always seen that a handful of times. And most of the time, it’s not really a separated bedroom. It’s just an expanded living room. So my wife likes the short term rental experience with this child. She also my wife has one great joy in life and it is not me a cup of coffee in the morning. Now she loves having a cup of coffee in the morning. And how she makes that coffee is so darn important that I am tested every day and it’s been five or six years now and how well I make that coffee kind of gauges how the day goes when she has a pod. And that’s your only option. And if that creamer is powdered creamer Yeah, you have the kind of creamer she wants again.

Jason Hartman 31:41
So you know, the amenities of a home. I totally got it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, very interesting. So wrap it all up for us with, you know where the industry’s going, you know, any predictions you want to say and give out your website?

Matt Curtis 31:53
Sure. I mean, a couple of things. I just want to make it real clear. I truly believe that every city has the right to create their own regulations. What I want to make sure is that they are looking at this through the lens of best practices, what works and what doesn’t. And creating regulations that achieve compliance and knowing all the different tools that are out there. I was just at the US Conference of Mayors where there was a robust conversation about allowing in larger urban areas for the latitude for short term rental in mixed use multifamily commercial zones, your central business district type zones. Knowing though that the lower density single family residence zones might be the greater challenge. So I understand. This is unique to different cities. Every city’s got their own different challenges, whether it’s parking, noise, trash, occupancy, insurance, inspection, or the millions of other issues that they may have. So we want to help them go about making these decisions, having this discussion and making these decisions based on what works and what doesn’t based on best practices, and there’s not a lot of them out there. So we bring our experience to the table. I work with several other former policy makers that all come from local government, you can find us at Smart City policy group calm. And we have a few former mayors on the team are former city manager and some other folks that have great skills to be able to help cities out. We have annual events, you can find those at Smart City policy summit calm, we’ll be having events in Europe and the United States. And we’re even talking to folks out in Asia and the Pacific to bring short term rental regulatory conversations out there. So look up our events. look us up, feel free to ask us any questions. We’re here to help

Jason Hartman 33:33
now. Thanks again for joining us.

Matt Curtis 33:35
Thanks so much. I appreciate

Jason Hartman 33:37
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